There's a couple of Sacto Indie lists that you can join in the yahoo groups. Kevin Seconds has one and a guy named Mark has the other. Mark wants to know who you are before he'll let you join. Kevin's was open, and you could read the list without being a member. And then this happened, and Kevin and Skid blamed darin for feeding me info (when I was reading it on their site). So Kevin switched it so strangers can't read his list anymore. Sheesh, all I keep saying is "it's just a dumb list of punk rock bands".
--Dave
--------------------
From: "darin k." <drkeat@y...>
Date: Wed May 8, 2002 12:22 pm
Subject: inbred sacramento
Dave "Smith" is trying to do a comprehensive cross-referenced listing of the bands in sac, past & present. He encouraged me to let you sactolisters know about it.
>>Dave Smith (gorn@n...) wrote:
> I'm making a list of bands and people in the greater Sacramento
area.
> >
> > If anyone wants to add stories or make corrections, let me know.
If
> > you want to shit talk a band that's fine and I can put it up as
> > "Anonymous Coward says" to hide your name.
> >
> > http://inbred.nokilli.com
> >
(from the website: "Punk rock and other independent stuff is my interest, so that's where my focus lies, but this list will also includes a lot of bands that I don't really like and don't know anything about (for instance, the Deftones. I can't name a single song, record or member, but I'll include 'em). This means, I'll spend hours hunting down information about Secret Center Records one-off cassingle bands, but I won't spend 10 minutes at the Beat looking up Deftones and Go National type bands. If someone submits it, though, I'll put it up.")
------------------------------------------------
From: kev <kseconds@y...>
Date: Wed May 8, 2002 1:12 am
Subject: Re: [sactolist] inbred sacramento
on 5/9/02 3:22 AM, darin k. at drkeat@y... wrote:
>but I won't spend 10 minutes at the Beat looking up Deftones and >Go National type bands. If someone submits it, though, I'll put it >up.")
I guess he means that we (Go Nash) must not be LAME PUNK enough. Damn! Ignored/shunned by the Loft crowd AGAIN!
Kev
------------------------------------------------
From: "sacto_music_station" <vyan1.geo@y...>
Date: Wed May 8, 2002 6:14 pm
Subject: Re: inbred sacramento
I've been to this site and it's -- interesting -- at least for 15
mins or so.
Personally, I find this sort of honest direct blatant favoritism rather refreshing. I think he should go further, and be more purist by telling non-punk bands to basically = "fuck-off and get your own site!!"
It would be more honest than doing a half-assed job with every one else "Yeah, dude-- sure, I'll include your stuff - (wink - wink)" and help him define the "definitive Sac punk" page, at least within his own mind.
Incomplete data is pretty much useless and inaccurate data - so I doubt anyone else will find the site of much use to them, either for sending him updates or to browse what he has beyond the "punk" bands.
Besides, why bother? You can play "six-degree's-of-sacto-seperation"
pretty nicely on the Scene & Heard site already.
Vyan
-----------------------------------------------
From: "darin k." <drkeat@y...>
Date: Wed May 8, 2002 8:09 pm
Subject: Re: [sactolist] Re: inbred sacramento
Dave updated within one day when i sent him some stuff about bands he'd
never like. i wouldn't expect that fast of a response normally, but i
think he's serious when he says he will include any info that someone
sends him. he's going for more of a simple database with at least the
basic info about every sacto band. (he said in an email to me that he
hopes some sactolisters will talk shit about some of the other bands on
the site; he posts that stuff as "anonymous coward says", and i think
he just enjoys that sort of thing whomever it's directed towards.
that's my least favorite part of the site, but then i'm one of those
passive-aggressive "nice guy" types.) there are a lot of bridges
between the bands he prefers & the scene&heard type bands, anyhow; this
is more of a one or two degrees of separation kind of town, even when
getting from !!! to Cake or from the Sea Pigs to Grub Dog & the Amazing
Sweethearts. (i just corrected a typo that said "Grub Dong" - now
that's a name.)
-darin k.
-----------------------------------------------
From: Skid Jones "dasfinger" <dasfinger@a...>
Date: Thu May 9, 2002 1:31 am
Subject: Re: inbred sacramento
I too, ran across this site a few months ago. I thought that it was an
interesting idea, until I read some of the entries. Some were
incorrect, incomplete, or just downright shitty. I wrote Dave and
explained that I had a lot of info, but wasn't pleased with much of
his content. He wrote me back and explained that it is an open forum
-
Anyone can submit, and he welcomes corrections, updates, and a
difference of opinion.
I took a chance and sent him some entries and some corrections. He posted these within two days - Exactly as I had written them.
I think the point of his statement about not researching bands like Deftones and Go National was honest, but lame. He probably should have said "I'm picky about what kinds of music I like, and since I don't get paid to write this, I won't be going out of my way to research certain bands. However, I will accept any and all entries that fit the parameters of this list."
The way he stated it, makes it seem like certain bands won't receive attention, and therefore, will keep many people from taking the site seriously. This was how I felt. After I wrote to him, I felt a little better about the site, and actually sent some more entries. I figured that since I don't have the time or energy to start my own site dedicated to Sacramento music, that I could at least help out on a site that did exist. It was during a period of "doing it for the good of posterity," that I must have been experiencing. Since that time, I have re-thought my actions.
While I still think that the site is a good idea, I have no interest in being a part of something that is negative or has a somewhat exclusionary declaration as an opening statement. If the site just presented the facts - And then had a place for comments I would be more inclined to judge it as fair. As it is, I see it as immature, jealous snobbery. IF you are serious about compiling a comprehensive list of Sacramento bands, I feel that personal opinons have no place. Start a "The Only Sacto. Bands Worth A Shit" if you want to.
In the end, I see this list as cowardly. I don't know Dave, and I don't mean him any ill will, but I will no longer be participating by giving my imput to his list. I'm quite certain that he won't care.
Jones
-----------------
I responded to Kevin saying mentioning Go National and the Deftones in the same sentence wasn't meant to be an insult.
-----------------
From: kev <kseconds@y...>
Date: Wed May 8, 2002 2:07 pm
Subject: Re: inbred sacramento
I could care less if you like Go National or not. It's the little dig
you throw in, placing us alongside Deftones that I find typical,
predictable and boring.
By the way, I'm part of the True Love
crowd now. *NOT* the Old I one.
Get it straight, bub!
-Kevin
------------------
From: "darin k." <drkeat@y...>
Date: Thu May 9, 2002 1:59 pm
Subject: inbred
first, my 2 cents: i like bands/people from the "punk/indie" &
"ironsides/true love" worlds, and tolerate occasional small-mindedness
from either side. it's kind of like being on friendly terms w/
Republicans (or, if you're Dave Brody, Democrats). i like following
degrees of separation type stuff, and overall like dave's site, and
believe that if there's anything i don't like, he'd be interested in
hearing about it. (dave & i aren't friends; we've met a few times, but
i'd be surprised if he could pick me out of a line-up, so I'm not
defending him out of some personal loyalty bias.) maybe I'm being
stupider than usual, but i don't see any cause for controversy over
inbred.nokilli.com.
second, Dave's not a member of the sactolist, so he can't respond directly to the criticisms on this list, but today he re-wrote the intro on inbred.nokilli.com to address some of the complaints from Skid, Kev, and others, and to clarify his views. you might want to check it out.
-darin k., tired of this topic
--------------------
From: Skid Jones "dasfinger"
<dasfinger@a...>
Date: Thu May 9, 2002 3:45 pm
Subject: Re: inbred
Darin
I'm sorry that you're tired of this topic, but you brought it up.
My comments were my two cents also. Obviously, you sent Dave the messages that were posted on this list - That doesn't bother me, as I would have said the same thing to his face if asked. The thing about this list is that one doesn't necessarily have to be asked to give their opinion.
I think I feel the same way you do in a lot of aspects - Two of my favorite local bands are Popgun and Pretty Girls, so I think it's fair to say that I have no interest in some sort of "scene" infighting.
Anyway, I was just expressing my opinion of Dave's site. I don't know him, so his sense of humor may not have been clear to me. The re-written intro makes more sense to me, than it did originally.
Being the self-righteous bastard that I claim to be, means that I have to be careful about the things I support. I hope that you don't think I was out of line with my comments, as I think I was completely fair.
Everyone who is interested in Dave's site should check it out and make their own opinion. Then they should feel free to share that opinion with the rest of the list - Knowing full well that the little tattletale Darin will send any negative reviews to Dave. (That's a joke son, settle down!)
Jones
----------------
From: Kev Seconds <kseconds@e...>
Date: Thu May 9, 2002 1:16 am
Subject: Re: [sactolist] inbred
on 5/10/02 4:59 AM, darin k. at drkeat@y... wrote:
> second, Dave's not a member of the sactolist, so he can't respond > directly to the criticisms on this list
No but someone on this list is feeding him stuff posted on it and he *IS* responding (at least he is, privately). I responded back. He seems to think that Go National is pissed at him cuz he doesn't like us. I don't give 2 shits whether he likes us or not. I just don't get him opening the door to people in local bands submitting info for his project only to have him take little jabs at certain ones. Fuck it. It's stupid.
I wish him luck on his list thingy though. I think it's a cool idea.
-Kev (Hi Dave!)
-----------------
From: Dave Smith
To: Kevin Seconds
Subject: inbred
I wonder if I just send email to the posting address if it'll be listed.
No one on this list has been feeding me stuff. It's open to the public, I have a web tracker that shows me how people found my site, and the sactolist showed up. I didn't know there was a sactolist before, I was just reading your posts.
The reason I figured that you were annoyed at me, Kevin, was the "we (Go Nash) must not be LAME PUNK enough. Damn! Ignored/shunned by the Loft crowd AGAIN!"
I just picked 2 bands (the Deftones and Go National) as bands that I don't know, but who have punk rock band history, and would be on the list. It wasn't meant as a jab to Go Nash. I don't know how you view the Deftones though.
I really enjoyed being called a coward, immature, snobby and stuff like that. No really, that stuff is funny. I'd rather have people tell me what they think instead of being nice to my face and then say I'm a jerk.
But anyways, cee-rist, it's just punk rock. It wasn't supposed to be snotty except for a "Fuck you, Ronald Reagan!".
--The Cowardly Dave Smith
-----------------
kev wrote:
> >on 5/10/02 8:40 AM, Dave Smith
at gorn@nokilli.com wrote:
> > The reason I figured that you were annoyed at me, Kev, was the "we
> > (Go Nash) must not be LAME PUNK enough. Damn! Ignored/shunned by the
> > Loft crowd AGAIN!"
I was trying to get a rise out of anyone
involved who might be seeing my
post. I just didn't get Go Nash being put into the same category as the
Deftones. I got nothing against the Deftones. I just don't see how the 2
bands are similar.
> > I really enjoyed being called a coward, immature, snobby and stuff
> > like that. No really, that stuff is funny. I'd rather have people
> > tell me what they think instead of being nice to my face and then
say
> > I'm a jerk.
Well, I don't know you and haven't really made any judgements beyond this
whole silly thing. And despite what you might think, I don't dislike people
who dislike my bands. I have friends/family who don't care for either 7Secs
or Go National. I'm certainly not going to be bummed if someone I don't know
doesn't like what I do.
Anyway, I don't what else to say about this. I think the Inbred project is a
cool idea. Good luck with it! I mean it.
Kevin
--------------------
From: Dave Smith
To: kseconds@y...
Subject: Re: inbred
Hey Kev,
This whole thing is so much out of
control. I don't know what your
list is saying because you cut off cowards like me from reading or
posting to it, but on the other sacto indie list, I hear a bunch of
squawking from both sides. I sent you email trying to join the list
and was denied, I sent my comments to people on your list, on people
saying my inbred list was a coward list to you, Skid Jones, and Vyan.
I'm fine for being made fun of. Really, I am. And you saying I'm not
allowed to post to your list is fine. I don't know you -- I'm not
sure why you're mad and I don't know why I'm not allowed to read your
messages anymore.
The Deftones vs. Go National, like I just said in the previous email I sent to you, was me saying "I don't know these bands, but they're bands with a punk rock history". I don't know what else you want from me -- I don't understand why when I say "Go National" and "The Deftones" in the same sentence pisses you off. I said the exact same thing in the previous email.
I think you're being a sissy. I don't know who's on your list, but I don't see why I shouldn't be able to read when you and Skid Jones say I'm a coward sissy snobby lame ass Loft punk. Really, like I've said to you and Skid, I think stuff like that is neat. I'm basically known as being a jerk. I think honest comments are helpful. You don't like how I said "Deftones" and "Go National" in one sentence, and Skid doesn't like whatever it is that he doesn't like. Why shouldn't you let me know you have a problem? But saying I suck, when you've never met me, is much easier.
And like I said last time, Christ, it's a list of punk rock bands. That's all it is. What the hell is everyone mad about? I just want a list of bands for people in Sacramento. You can post this to your list and say I'm a jerk, but like I've been saying and replying to your messages (when you'd let me see them) from the beginning, it's a list of punk rock bands. That's it. A list of punk rock bands. I'd keep repeating it, but I think I've said it enough.
I've been by True Love twice on Friday, and I'll show up next week to talk to you. I'd rather have you say "Well, I don't know you, but I've decided to hate you for saying Go Nash and Deftones in one sentence" or a "Hey, sorry about that, have a beer" thing first. Like I keep saying, "it's a list of punk rock bands in Sacramento" why are you, Skid Jones, and that Vyan guy pissed?
--Dave
--------------------
Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 04:14:39 +0800
From: kev <kseconds@y...>
To: Dave Smith
Subject: Re: inbred
Dave,
First off, you are WAY to defensive and insecure about the so-called bad
things that you THINK I've said about you. Other than what I sent to you
(which I sent to the Sactolist since it's been an issue lately), I haven't
had much else to say on the subject. I don't like or dislike you cuz I
don't know you. I don't think we've ever even met though I apologize if I am
wrong. I'm not mad at you because you've done nothing to make me mad. If I
*DID* have some major beef with you, I would have absolutely no problem
talking with you face to face about it. If you knew me, you'd know this to
be true.
Secondly, you are NOT being kept from joining the Sactolist. Unlike the Sac Indie list, the Sactolist is open to anyone, Sac-music related. I just haven't had much time or keep forgetting to go up to the Yahoo site and approve the people wanting to subscribe. I will do that now and you can decide whether you want to stay on it or not. I'm tired of anonymous people reading the list from the website and then taking spineless potshots at the people who are on the list so I have made it a members-only list.
Thirdly, no one's really making fun of you on the list. Skid said what he had to say. I said what I had to say and that's about it. I *DO* sense some sort of exclusive "vibe" coming from you and that's what I commented on. No big deal. I hope you understand that it doesn't matter to me whether you like my band or or any other bands I may be connected to or be friends with. I'm quite sure you feel the same way so let's leave it at that.
And yeah, if you think that you're going to bum me out by calling me a sissy, you better try harder. I've been called much meaner things by much meaner people. I'm not sure what you hope to gain by this discussion but I'm going to get out here. We'll have to, pardon the cliche, agree to disagree and leave it at that.
By the way, who the fuck told you that Skid and I EVER called you a "coward sissy snobby lame ass Loft punk"? Tell whoever gave you this info that I said that they're a fucking liar. I'm sure I speak for Skid on that too.
-Kev
--------------------
This next one is my absolute favorite one:
Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 13:50:35 -0700
(PDT)
From: Dave Smith
To: kev <kseconds@y..>
Subject: Re: inbred
Howdy Kev,
Yeah, I've started sending these to the sacto_indie list, too. All I'm doing is making an indexed list of Sacto bands. I wasn't trying for a "loft" vs. "ironsides/true love" argument because that just seems pointless. I'd love to be in a car with you, Soriano, Kim Kanelos and Skid. Wait, no I wouldn't -- that'd be horrible.
It's just a list of Sacramento area bands.
If you'd like to send me a list of bands you've been in, I'll put them in. If you don't, they'll be put in at some point in the future. Right now I have you in 7 Seconds, Drop Acid, Five Feet Ten Inches, Mustard, Go National and the Knockoffs. Even if you were in a dixieland band, I'd include that because of 7 Seconds.
>Secondly, you are NOT being kept from joining the Sactolist. Unlike the
Sac
>Indie list, the Sactolist is open to anyone, Sac-music related. I just
>haven't had much time or keep forgetting to go up to the Yahoo site and
>approve the people wanting to subscribe. I will do that now and you can
>decide whether you want to stay on it or not. I'm tired of anonymous people
>reading the list from the website and then taking spineless potshots at
the
>people who are on the list so I have made it a members-only list.
I still haven't been able to join. It's says I'm a pending member.
But I like that you made the archive member only, but haven't approved
me. I hope I'm not the "spineless potshots" guy because I just wanted
to post a "hey, I'm not doing a list of area bands to be a snob" type
message and then I'll go away. I'd be the archbishop_smith guy in the
pending list.
>By the way, who the fuck told you that Skid and I EVER called you a "coward
>sissy snobby lame ass Loft punk"? Tell whoever gave you this info that
I
>said that they're a fucking liar. I'm sure I speak for Skid on that too.
Here's the emails where I get that from. The sissy part was me saying
you were being a sissy for making your list member only so I couldn't
respond. So I take the sissy part back because I said that about you.
--Dave
------------------------------------------------
From: kev <kseconds@y...>
on 5/9/02 3:22 AM, darin k. at drkeat@yahoo.com wrote:
>but I won't spend 10 minutes at the Beat looking up Deftones and >Go National type bands. If someone submits it, though, I'll put it >up.")
I guess he means that we (Go Nash) must not be LAME PUNK enough. Damn! Ignored/shunned by the Loft crowd AGAIN!
Kev
-----------------------------------------------
From: "dasfinger" <dasfinger@a...>
Date: Thu May 9, 2002 1:31 am
As it is, I see it as immature, jealous snobbery.
In the end, I see this list as cowardly. I don't know Dave, and I don't mean him any ill will, but I will no longer be participating by giving my imput to his list. I'm quite certain that he won't care.
------------------------------------------------
Vyan wrote:
It would be more honest than doing a half-assed job with every one else "Yeah, dude-- sure, I'll include your stuff - (wink - wink)" and help him define the "definitive Sac punk" page, at least within his own mind.
Incomplete data is pretty much useless and inaccurate data - so I doubt anyone else will find the site of much use to them, either for sending him updates or to browse what he has beyond the "punk" bands.
--------------------
And that caused a 180 degree skip on Kevin. At least he's civilly blowing me off. I still don't understand why people are mad about this dumb site.
--------------------
From: kev <kseconds@y...>
To: Dave Smith
Subject: Re: inbred
Dave,
I just re-checked and you're listed as a Sactolist subscriber. Try again and
see what happens. Yahoo pretty much blows so we get these fuckups every once
and awhile.
As soon as I get a moment away from the cafe, I'll sit down and put together a list of bands I've been involved in with member info, discographies and what-not. Like I said before, I think this idea of yours is very cool and I'm glad somebody is doing it.
By the way, who in the Deftones have "punk rock history"?
Talk with ya later and see ya on the
Sactolist,
Kev
--------------------
Okay, thanks.
Thanks for sending me info, too.
I don't know who's in the Deftones, but I'd think there'd be someone in it that was in a punk rock band or two...
--Dave
--------------------
This was in May 2002, and Kevin hasn't sent me any info. I'm not surprised but man this whole thing was dumb. It's just a list of punk & indie bands. Sheesh.
--Dave
Skid Jones sent me more email once I replied to having a "snobby immature jealous" and "cowardly" site that said:
Hey Dave
I was kidding about Darin ratting me out. I even wrote that it was a joke.
I was honest with you when I first wrote to you regarding your site. As I wrote in my post to the Sactolist, I only began to feel differently after the fact. Maybe it was because I didn't get your sense of humor.
I was critical of your site the first time I contacted you. I felt that one criticism was enough, and since I don't have the time or energy to do what you're doing, I should just shut up. I never brought up your site on the Sactolist - I only commented once the site was mentioned, and I was honest about my feelings.
Now, let me make myself clear - I never
said that the site itself was
guilty of snobbery or immaturity - I was referring to the opening statement
about Deftones and Go National. I didn't like the tone of it - It is possible
that I interpeted the tone in a way that it wasn't intended, and actually, I
now believe that was the case. But at the time, rather than be a crybaby
and complain, I figured that I would just no longer take part in submitting
information. I added farther, that everyone should visit your site and
form their own opinions I still stand by what I said at the time, but after
reading your new intro, I believe that i may have missed your sense of
humor - For that I apologize.
Like I said before, I appreciate the time and effort that you have obviously put into your site, and I thank you for listenting to my ramblings.
Jones